00:00:00: Music.

00:00:20: Welcome to a new episode of our art of molecule podcast Our Guest today is a truly extraordinary and special man,

00:00:29: he recently visited Switzerland invited by the NCC are molecular systems engineering and the Camille and Henry Dreyfus Foundation,

00:00:39: Hoffmann Polish American Nobel Laureate in chemistry and one of the great Art and Science communicators of our time,

00:00:48: we talked with the Lord on the occasion of the world premiere of alchemy a melodrama written by him and Austrian composer Oliver Pita Gabba.

00:00:59: In our podcast we are celebrating a remarkable life which began in 1937 in a Polish town called solo Chief where Roald Hoffmann spent his childhood,

00:01:11: and survived Nazi occupation during the second World War,

00:01:15: in the coming hour you are about to hear some truly touching and almost unbelievable stories so if you want to find out why or what had to change his last name from

00:01:28: Zac Efron to Hoffman and why winning the Nobel Prize is not always the greatest pleasure in a scientists life,

00:01:38: stay tuned.

00:01:38: Music.

00:01:50: Lot of money,

00:01:52: you were born on July 18th 1937 into a Polish and Jewish Family where you parents and maybe other close relatives practicing the Jewish religion.

00:02:06: Indeed I was born in Poland in 1937 in family was Jewish.

00:02:14: The practicing this was now a matter of as it was for Jews around the world,

00:02:23: there are varying stages of assimilation and very few are still,

00:02:28: the very observant Orthodox Torah following Jews that we think of and we think of them in.

00:02:39: Especially strangers we think of them,

00:02:43: in Hasidic dress and black outfits or such anyway we were certainly not hasidim we were Jewish and we were in the stage of assimilation which is typical was typical of Polish Jews in that period,

00:02:58: which German Jews were maybe had undergone a little earlier and American Jews are have undergone also,

00:03:06: my grandparents my grand parents were.

00:03:12: Religious Jews but they were not very religious my grandfather wore a yarmulke I keep up but my parents were secular and they were.

00:03:26: Their name and their names were hillo and Clara Rosen was my mother's maiden name Saffron was my hour.

00:03:36: My father's name they were not religious but they they did not.

00:03:44: Fight very much about being not religious with their parents,

00:03:54: let's see another way to say it is where as my uncle's were named Abraham and Samuel there was no way that I was going to get a name like Abraham oh Samuel.

00:04:06: And instead,

00:04:08: Jews and the generation of that assimilation were given more secular names for instance Mao was a popular name because of Emile Zola.

00:04:21: And Mike is Roald was after know we turn explorer who died 10 years before I was born my mother says she read an article in a newspaper now they did give me a Hebrew name and I was circumcised a they were,

00:04:35: certainly sort of they were definitely Jewish but not religious what does home mean to you.

00:04:44: Home to me is where my family is now and where my children are and that is the United States but,

00:04:53: that's where I was born ukrainians claim me as Ukrainian the polls say I'm polish that's fine if I were to say to somebody what I am I would say I'm a polished you,

00:05:08: by origin and then American and America we were we came at age my age 11,

00:05:16: as served as my home it's where I got my education.

00:05:22: Lot of your family members were killed in the Holocaust your father was killed by the Germans in a labor camp,

00:05:30: and when you were nine years old he did together with your mother for a year and a half in an attic and room in your school what what kind of,

00:05:42: memories do you have of that time and how much have they influenced your life up to this this very day is that a every day,

00:05:52: memory for you or how do you cope with that very difficult history of yours,

00:05:58: it is an everyday memory.

00:06:04: I cope with it just fine I'm not obsessed by it in any way I think the.

00:06:13: The first thing is that survival is most important we did survive and to me the act of survival.

00:06:24: Is itself a.

00:06:30: Something which is a cause for optimism about human nature we survived a good man saved us.

00:06:39: And his family but so many died so many were betrayed and.

00:06:46: The terrible Obsession of the Nazis with killing the Jews led to the destruction of so many,

00:06:53: there were three children out of the to hundreds of Jewish survivors in our town out of maybe 4,000 Jews in a town before the war not allowed maybe not quite 4,000 by them,

00:07:07: but I'm one of those three children and one is sad about.

00:07:15: All that were lost and that is a sadness that will not go away I feel.

00:07:24: Somehow in the end.

00:07:28: I'm fortunate to have survived I yet I do feel very much like a Survivor and I'm I'm happy for that.

00:07:36: It colors my outlook for life I'm thankful for.

00:07:42: Every day I can walk and for every I try to be thankful for every moment that I have.

00:07:52: You mentioned that your parents or your father's last name was saffron I believe you were born as robots affront to tell me about the switch to Hoffman how'd that happen oh it happened in stages so.

00:08:05: It has to do with geopolitical things and where we came from.

00:08:13: I was born as rolled saffron my father's name was Hillel saffron.

00:08:19: My father was killed when I was almost six in June the end of June.

00:08:25: 19:43 right after the war when we were back in Poland Krakow,

00:08:37: my mother remarried a man who have lost,

00:08:42: his wife during the war so there was a lot of this people were anxious to get on for with their life I have a picture of my mother in Krakow and a new coat that's the first thing she did after the war.

00:08:56: I pictures of me and refugee camps and our children the classes from every age because they had not gone to school in the war but we were all in the same class,

00:09:07: my mother remarried and my stepfather's name was naphtali Margulies was in our Jewish Survivor.

00:09:16: And so my name became for all of about a year Roald Margolis and,

00:09:25: then on the way out of Poland we bought the documents of a.

00:09:34: Of a.

00:09:37: German Soldier who had been killed in the war so now comes a double Story one has connections to our times,

00:09:46: one is the story of why we did this we did this because we knew about your American immigration laws and we wanted to go to America and we knew just like the refugees in Bangladesh and Kenya know today,

00:10:00: that something about the immigration laws and we knew there was a quota under the discriminatory.

00:10:08: Regulations in the United States that was larger for Germans than four poles.

00:10:15: This is strange this is discriminatory for racial reasons.

00:10:21: American racial reasons and so we it was good to become German the second thing was.

00:10:30: The poles were busy chasing out the Germans who had remained in chalazion and Silesia and.

00:10:40: They took away the money from a village from the priest from the villagers German villages in a village priest in a German Village in chalazion I'm far from Breslau.

00:10:55: So decided to support his congregation by.

00:11:01: A process which hurt absolutely nobody he sold the birth certificates since the church was in charge of keeping records he sold the birth certificates of Germans who had been killed in the war so,

00:11:15: this bizarre story but this is a typical wartime story.

00:11:21: And so overnight naphtali Margolis became Power Hoffman.

00:11:29: And my uncles who were in a business of Uncle who was in the business of forging papers,

00:11:36: forged a wedding certificate being mean Paul Hoffman and Clara Rosen and my real father disappeared from the legal document scene,

00:11:46: and I was renamed Roald Hoffmann.

00:11:52: So that's how I became should we have changed back it would have been too complicated would have drawn attention to our,

00:12:00: in some way illegal immigration to the United States because we came on false papers,

00:12:06: do you or very early when it comes to receiving the Nobel Prize in chemistry at the I believe you were 44 that is Young for for that and it seems like well I mean after that

00:12:18: you could have retired I mean what else can you wait for after receiving such a price it is what you point to in.

00:12:27: Expressed in other words is a.

00:12:33: An interesting thing a problem for Nobel laureates let me just say from the outset that.

00:12:41: Getting a Nobel Prize is very nice but it is an unalloyed good eh,

00:12:49: only for my mother and my University for different reasons that are obvious,

00:12:58: but for the Nobel recipient that's not so clear there are some good things and bad things and some bad things not so bad things but more difficult things are not expected one is that.

00:13:15: There are something as this think distinguishes Nobel Prize.

00:13:22: Engenders envy and jealousy and where that envy and jealousy from colleagues surfaces.

00:13:32: Is of course in the dark when they think that you cannot see them,

00:13:39: and that is when they review your papers and especially in research Grant review so.

00:13:48: And it's surfaces in,

00:13:51: even the words they use so when I would make some mistake in a paper and it would be reviewed by robbery as part of our normal life instead of the reviewers saying.

00:14:06: There was a mistake made here and this is what should be done they would say I would not expect a Nobel Laureate to make such a mistake.

00:14:14: So what's there is nastiness a human quality unfortunately coming through.

00:14:22: The question though that you asked is an important one that is before the Nobel Prize I had the fortune to choose what I wanted to work on.

00:14:33: Within the constraints of getting government support or such on it and they were not big constraints that was.

00:14:41: Even if I could do that.

00:14:45: Before when the Nobel Prize happens people keep asking you.

00:14:54: Sometimes explicitly well what are you working on now what are you going to do next and if you have the Good Fortune not to have asked yourself that question.

00:15:08: After 10 people ask that question you begin to ask it of yourself this is not a good.

00:15:16: Situation for an artist if you want to view the scientist and partisan artists,

00:15:22: the artist doesn't want to be as what am I going to paint next because he often doesn't know and he follows his instincts as that attic and,

00:15:33: ideas and he does the next thing but.

00:15:38: Too much thinking about some thinking about what you're going to do is go.

00:15:44: Too much concentration on what you going to do is I think to a certain extent destructive of the creative impulse,

00:15:55: that's true for science and art so yes and I'm happy what I did I remained a scientist so what I mean by that is.

00:16:08: I did not follow the usual seductions which are to become a university administrator the head of a foundation some sort of honorific or administrative position.

00:16:23: And I kept on doing basic science at about a similar level.

00:16:32: Maybe it was a little easier to to get the coworkers.

00:16:38: Oh came to me I think they would have thought of coming to me anyway but it became easier to some.

00:16:47: So I'm happy with my life went on normally.

00:16:52: I published twice as many papers after the Nobel Prize not that the number matters but they were also very good ones.

00:17:01: So I'm happy,

00:17:03: for many decades you have connected The Sciences with the Arts to reach the communication gap between the researcher on the one side and and the public on the other side first of all,

00:17:14: why and how did you get interested in the Arts was that an order a natural thing with being a chemist,

00:17:21: no it did not come at all from being a chemist it went from getting a liberal arts education,

00:17:28: as I mentioned that Columbia with these courses in various things and taking it seriously and falling in love with literature and dark.

00:17:38: It was there from the University days it where its roots were in that education,

00:17:44: no there was nothing otherwise in the family there were no artist in the family there were no musicians to speak of nobody played a musical instrument.

00:17:57: One thing to say is maybe the war saved me from having violin lessons because given what I mean is given the kinds of,

00:18:07: family which I grew up I surely would have been subjected to music lessons at that sounds bad of course it's not bad.

00:18:16: Anyway my sources are in appreciating art.

00:18:21: Keeping up with doing so even when it was difficult in the beginning some of my scientific career at least reading.

00:18:31: And looking at things.

00:18:34: And pushing through to take the time to do it because after all they're just 24 hours in a day and the science was so interesting and so.

00:18:49: Addictive and so time demanding that.

00:18:54: To find time outside of Science and the family and other thing that pulls on us to find time outside of that for doing things in the Arts has always been,

00:19:09: very difficult but it's just spiritually important to me so I have.

00:19:19: I just love these things and I love I love looking at that art at new art that I see.

00:19:29: Um

00:19:31: At the kunstmuseum yesterday when we went what was interesting was.

00:19:39: Not to see another Picasso or clay what was interesting was the incredible assembly of not German and European art which is.

00:19:53: Part of our art museums in general which tend to view medieval and Renaissance times in terms of Italian art and such which I love but,

00:20:05: but this was something else and there was a large enough selection so it was interesting to go.

00:20:12: If I understand you correctly art goals or can go hand-in-hand with the Natural Sciences in the sense that it can,

00:20:21: also serve as a communicator as a help to bridge the gap of communication it certainly the art can.

00:20:31: It's because.

00:20:34: The scientists are not reflective on what they do and yet what they do involves communication and words and pictures and chemistry especially in pictures.

00:20:47: I have loved that I was given the opportunity to comment on.

00:20:55: Drawing and illustration in chemistry and.

00:21:01: What it means and I didn't the first talk for instance when I there was just one slide where I had,

00:21:11: when I was talking about art and chemistry and I said here is this bunch of people who are,

00:21:18: forced to communicate three-dimensional representation structures of molecules,

00:21:25: but they are not talented and doing so and so what they do they invent a primitive art form somewhere between caricature a kind of semiotics,

00:21:38: indoctrinate students in the end and they can communicate and I think it's so so wonderful,

00:21:44: as something I didn't talk about then is also the visual tactile link so that they that they the chemist when they indoctrinate students into how to draw a tetrahedron in A Primitive way,

00:21:59: they also make them build a model of that and move it in their hands while it dries.

00:22:08: It's absolutely amazing what is going on there and the chemists are not aware that they're doing anything like,

00:22:17: formal artistic training but they are in some way and that's so interesting

00:22:22: you're still full of new ideas and ideas for new project you told me you wish you had more time to do them all at the same time as I wish I had more time I don't regret,

00:22:33: I don't feel bad about not having enough time I mean it's a wish I think I've had.

00:22:40: So much time compared to my father for instance who was killed when he was 32.

00:22:50: I have projects in science I would have liked to come up with a chemical theory of superconductivity,

00:22:58: I've been interested in that phenomenon of conduction without resistance,

00:23:04: there are hints that there one could have a chemical understanding rather more than a physical one or an addition to a physical one,

00:23:14: but and I felt near it but I haven't had the time to explore it and now I won't have the time that's okay.

00:23:22: I've wanted to write another play about I mentioned on a Japanese theme about a.

00:23:32: A Japanese God who who in fact is frightening and impressive and Powerful but who was a for some reason is afraid of.

00:23:45: Hurting people so he works only at night and to avoid frightening people during the day and it's sort of interested me,

00:23:57: as an idea I've written three poems on the theme of that God but I would I think a play would be,

00:24:05: I think it one could write a play I have had.

00:24:10: Ideas for some other place I so why do I like place I think plays are a special we there's something special about place the idea that someone's in front of you and they're they're human.

00:24:26: And they're they're saying things there's this first as a kind of concentrated.

00:24:34: Conversation is not just a recording of some people talking on A Streetcar but second.

00:24:42: You know that they are not who they really are but you,

00:24:47: you still know they're human so you lose yourself in a moment you suspend doubt and you.

00:24:56: You see them for what the roles they play I think that is so interesting and so.

00:25:04: Powerful so I think a play has more.

00:25:10: Emotional power because a real human beings especially if the good actors then actually a movie or,

00:25:20: novel though I love novels when I listen these days I actually last few years I have listened to more books while taking long walks.

00:25:31: Playing of my,

00:25:33: my telephone through earphones download it but I think I've listened to more books than I've read actually in the last few years and it's just wonderful so I listened only two novels.

00:25:47: I read some nonfiction but I actually read more novels than I do not fix I think novels also a very interesting because there are.

00:25:56: One of the few human forms where are you,

00:26:01: you get into what people think and that's what you can in a novel someone has imagined how people think I love it.

00:26:13: Coming to an end you have one message to the young researchers of today I think.

00:26:22: One is to be reflective meaning stop once in a while too.

00:26:29: Think about what you're doing and what meaning it has in the overall sense of things so when you make a drawing and I chemical paper.

00:26:41: Think about the relationship of making that drawing you've done it on a computer to what other people using illustrations weather and advertising.

00:26:54: Or in high art either one what is involved in that reflect on what is going on and what you are doing,

00:27:04: when you not all the time not before you do what you have to do.

00:27:09: But then then just once in a while stop and reflect.

00:27:15: I also think that the young people that they should have confidence in what they do.

00:27:21: They are faced with decisions who to work for what problem to work on my little ones what journal to publish where to apply to graduate school,

00:27:33: and sometimes we are like those decisions change their lives they may but.

00:27:40: Have faith in yourself it turns out that.

00:27:44: Anything you do if you do it and I concentrated intent way will actually turn out to be,

00:27:54: good and it'll turn out to be original because you are not original what I mean by that is,

00:28:03: we put together what we do from the experience of what we have learned by reading other papers listening to lectures listening to your teacher or several teachers.

00:28:16: But because you will make a combination of those things in the science it will be original it will be permuted in some new way.

00:28:28: And I am.

00:28:31: I'm so happy to see that in young people my former students for instance what they've done with little pieces of what they learned with me mixing with other little pieces,

00:28:41: and assembling a mosaic of something new what of my thank you very much for inviting us into your world and for being such a generous teacher wish you all the best good luck and health thank you be well.

00:28:58: Music.